Hatching Creativity: Conversations on Success, Innovation, and Growth
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Hatching Creativity: Conversations on Success, Innovation, and Growth
The Therapeutic Power of Connection and Vulnerability with TJ Woodward
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Ever wonder how the power of connection and vulnerability contributes to your healing process? Join us as chat with TJ Woodward, a seasoned clinician advocate, author, and the founder of Conscious Recovery. We'll shed light on the significance of creating safe spaces for healing, the role curiosity plays in counteracting stigma, and the surprise element–the transformative potentials of equine therapy. We'll demystify how the energy we radiate impacts our interactions, and how animals, being highly sensitive to this energy, can assist us in our therapeutic journeys.
The Power of Connection and Vulnerability
Speaker 1Thanks for tuning into Hatchin' Creativity . Today I get to speak with TJ Woodward . He's a clinician advocate , author and the founder of Conscious Recovery . We're going to be speaking about connection , vulnerability , good communication skills and creating our own constructs . We also speak about disconnecting from our judgment and reducing stigma by being curious . If you like what you hear , please like , share , subscribe and tell all your friends about Hatchin' Creativity . Tj , thank you so much for joining us today .
Speaker 2Well , you know , I love being in conversation with you and I love that we trust what , exactly what wants and needs to emerge will . So I'm enjoying , I'm looking forward to the ride .
Speaker 1You know , sometimes you get hit over the head with something and you go is this the meaning of life ?
Speaker 1You know , I do these weekly videos on LinkedIn and Facebook and I share those and it's really just a you know something to give people something to think about .
Speaker 1I always wonder in the back of my head , that inner critic that is telling you you're not really making a difference and you're not really doing anything . And someone came over to me at a bike race this weekend and he says I saw that video about when people share information with you , or people talk about themselves or people share on social media , you're really only seeing a snapshot of their life and you can't really compare your life to their life . And the comment that he made was I realized all of the troubles that I'm having with somebody in my life , but to the outside world it looks like everything is perfect because those are the things that I share . And he was really touched by that video and it hit me that , hey , maybe this is why we do this right , and this is why we're here is to connect with other people and to try to make a difference in people's lives . And it sounds like you do that on so many different levels . I'd love to hear your thoughts on that .
Speaker 2Yeah , I mean connection is at the core of it , and I think there are so many different layers to the conversation of connection .
Speaker 2So I'm going to start by just jumping into the deep end . When we're out of , when we're disconnected from our true essence , we look to the world to connect . We look to the world to bring us a sense of love and connection , and the issue with that is it doesn't actually create what we're really hungry for , which is a very deep , authentic connection . So it's an interesting paradoxical conversation , because the more I allow myself to connect with others , the more I'm connected with myself . The more I'm connected with myself , the more I can connect with others .
Speaker 2When I look at it in terms of the work that we do , you know , connection , having authentic connection with our clients is the number one tool that will help someone recover , and I can say that that might be a bold statement , and but to me that is true , because that depth of connection , that authentic connection , creates a safe space to start doing the deeper work of examining and unlearning and all the different things we do in therapy or in in treatment . Connection is at the root of what we all want . I think it's the deepest longing for every human being . Whether we call it love or connection , they're one in the same , really .
Speaker 1I agree and I think that also you're dealing with , depending on background , right and and comfort with vulnerability can also affect ability to connect with other people and it kind of keeps us separate , right . You know we don't necessarily allow ourselves to to trust , and that's something that is is really important , for that growth .
Speaker 2Yeah , I mean that's . Every year I have a theme . I don't this wasn't really conscious , but I noticed myself having a theme , and now I have an annual conference and the theme is always tied to it . So my theme for the year is healing the healers .
Speaker 2How can I be part of helping the people who are in a healing profession , whatever that is to do their own healing ? Because what you just said is so powerful , because if I'm in the room and that's with a partner , that's with you know , in in my work , that's if we're clinicians , if I'm playing a role , rather than really having an authentic connection . That that is a felt sense that the other person experiences right . So the depth of authentic connection is being wide , open and present for what wants to emerge , much like you and I are doing right now . What is required , though , is for me to do a lot of my own healing , because otherwise I'm just in reactivity , and it's really convenient sometimes to go into a role my role is counselor , my role is therapist , my role is husband rather than being really present and , to the best of our ability , not being in any preconceived idea about what wants to emerge in this moment .
Speaker 1There's a lot to unpack there . You talk about roles , right . I always charge against these constructs of what I'm expected to be because I'm a man , what someone's expected to be because they're a woman , what somebody's expected to be because they're a child or a clinician . Those constructs can be really dangerous and really harming for people too . What I'm hearing you say is clinicians , when working with your clients , it's really important that you express some vulnerability too . If you want your clients to be vulnerable and to really open up to you , if you really want to help them , that bit of vulnerability is really important .
Speaker 2Yeah , I think it's really important to even go into this a little more , because we know that only 10% to 15% of the way we communicate is verbal . Most people , or many people , think well , the other 85% to 90% must be body language . I actually think most of it is energy . If that sounds too out there , actually we are energetic beings , right ? Animals , for example , are very attuned to energy . That's why equine therapy can be really powerful .
Speaker 2For example , if I'm saying being vulnerable in this space with my clients , I'm not necessarily saying that I'm going to tell them anything about my personal life . Occasionally it is appropriate , but really it's an energy . If I'm in a role , there's a whole body language , there's a whole posture , but there's also an energy we also get into . Why are people so burnt out as healers ? Well , if I think the person sitting in front of me is broken and my role is to fix them , that's not only exhausting but it's not effective . Right , when I'm in the room with someone as an equal , that doesn't mean that I'm not in a different place in my journey . I'm talking about energetically being open and curious . The joke I say is I'm studying to become a cop curious , open and present right To be really open with someone , because something can emerge that I have no idea what's or needs to emerge . When I'm willing to be in that space , miraculous things happen 100% , and that needs to also come with lack of judgment .
Speaker 1Yeah , how often do we talk to other clinicians on a personal level outside of a conversation , right ? And they go oh man , I spoke with this person today and they were a real mess , or things like that and you go wait a second , let's withhold judgment and talk about how we can help them . I think that being able to separate that judgment and to really focus on the needs that are really important .
Speaker 2Yeah , I love what you're talking about because that's it right . And I thought one day I would stop judging . And then I realized , oh , my mind is always judging , so it's not really about moving , it's not really about getting rid of the judgment . It's about awareness , awareness and awareness and awareness of what the judgment creates . So we sit in clinical meetings you and I have sat in clinical meetings and we'll hear people referred to as treatment resistant , drug seeking , no kidding , right , if they're new in recovery , they're unwilling , they're unparticipatory , or we refer to them as their diagnosis .
Speaker 2She's a borderline and all of that is a judgment that creates a barrier between me and the client . And so it's not because I was like , oh , I shouldn't judge . Well , nothing could be truer and less useful . But when I started saying , wow , I wonder what this judgment is really about , because judgment can also be like . I hear people say , oh , I love this client , she's so willing . That's also a judgment , right , it affects the field . And if you're working in a really , really powerful and authentic clinical team , you can even talk about issues of being attracted to someone or not attracted to someone or resistant to someone , and then you can start to get into the deeper work of like what are my judgments , what are my biases , how is this affecting the field and can I start to move beyond them , which is really different than getting rid of them ?
Speaker 1For sure . Are you familiar with the landmark forum ? Have you ever done it ? Are you Perfect ?
Speaker 1I went through the landmark forum during a really difficult time in my life and one of the things that they did during that class was we had to close our eyes and listen to the voice in our head and I know it sounds kind of silly right here . This is in the horror movies . You know the voices in our head . But we had to listen to the voice in our head and the point was is that , no matter what , that voice is never going to stop ? It's always there . Good Learning to see what is that voice saying . Is it trying to protect me ? Is it trying to bring up something that was never addressed in the past ? Right , or what is it trying to do ? And then accepting that for what it is . As long as you fight it , forget it . That's going to get louder and louder and louder and more disruptive . But quitting the fight and just listening to what it's trying to say is something I found to be really helpful and I learned that from that course .
Healing Biases and Promoting Curiosity
Speaker 2Yeah , and really curiosity is the way we work with judgment , because , like you said , we don't want to try to stop the judgment , because then it seems to intensify . It's like going into meditation and saying shut up mind , shut up mind it does not serve us right .
Speaker 2Some meditators are filled with this beautiful bliss and some are just . That critic is just harsh and very , very present , and they're both valuable because we're witnessing . So the way we actually work with this is we start to witness the thoughts , we realize that we have thoughts but we're not our thoughts , and then in that way all the judgments are just almost like a movie that's playing and we realize we're holding the projector right and so it's not . Let me get rid of the thoughts . Let me be curious about them . I wonder where I got that idea . You know we have unconscious biases , is what we call it now , or confirmation bias that's the current kind of buzzwords around it . But really we all have these biases and beliefs . I did a talk recently at a addiction treatment conference and I called it healing the unconscious biases in the therapeutic alliance .
Speaker 1Now , that sounds smart . That's a lot of words . That's a lot of words . Break it . Break down a little bit .
Speaker 2What I actually did is I said and this was early COVID , so we were on zoom , so it was great because I did a slide show and I said we're not going to process what you experience . All I'm going to invite you to do is look at these series of slides and see if you have a thought or a body sensation . So I would show like . I showed a picture of an older couple , I showed a picture of a lesbian couple , I showed a picture of a 70 year old man holding hands with a 30 year old woman . I showed a picture of someone wearing a make America great hat . I put it all in there and I said did you notice anything ? We're not going to process it , but the key is if I had any kind of reactivity .
Speaker 2There's a judgment attached to that and it's not so important what the judgment is . It's more important to realize it's there and in the therapeutic setting or in a . You know , if I'm a counselor or a clinician and they walk into the office , I have an automatic response . Many of us aren't aware of them . So I want to be curious about that and see if I can look beyond that . Can I look Now ? This is where I would get into like I use it . I talk in spiritual terms , but I look for the spiritual essence of that person and I look to connect from my essence to their essence . Then we're way beyond our race , our age , our gender , our orientation and all the different ways that we can use to feel separate from someone .
Speaker 1You know , one of the things that we do in our software and I think really lends to what you're saying to you , j2 is we track when people leave treatment against therapeutic advice and we're looking at a lot of it as social determinants of health , but also other factors that are involved , and a lot of times , you know , clinicians may not realize their own biases and one of the things that we like to look at is the clinician involved , the case manager involved and then some information on the client themselves , because what we find is it makes a pretty .
Speaker 1It definitely helps in deciding which clinicians should be working with which clients and it uncovers a lot of those biases that we don't even know we have . I hear people say all the time I can't be racist , I have a black friend , right , you know . Funny story , yeah , when I met my father-in-law and he's a real character and he says , mike , you're Jewish , he said , yeah , he says I'm a big fan of Jews , my accountant is Jewish , my attorney's Jewish and so is my business partner . I love the Jews . Oh , wow , I said , well , I'm really glad I filed my horns down and I was here for you today , right , you know , the thing is is people don't realize these biases . Yeah , and it can be harmful , especially in a therapeutic setting , these kinds of things .
Speaker 2Yeah , so you are now talking about when I'm with you . I'm like our next show could be .
Speaker 1I know there's just so many of these .
Speaker 2The next show is really what I'm the most passionate about , and that is healing the seeming divisions in the world . Right , and if I'm only… .
Speaker 1You should run for president . That's what I want to see , absolutely .
Speaker 2I'm not going to say never , because then I'll end up . You know , my friend is running for president right now and I hold her in high esteem for her bravery in doing it , but that is definitely not my calling . But what I will say is I'd love to be a spiritual advisor to someone who's president , because really , the deeper work here is to not finger point , and that's what we saw emerge like in 2020 when all this came up about race , where people were like pointing fingers at who the racist was instead of being accountable , and I think what we're invited to do is look . And what I encountered during that process being married to a person of color added a layer to it , because we had some very , very deep and uncomfortable conversations . But what I discovered is something that I knew but I didn't really feel the deep impact of , and that is I loved my grandfather very much and he was an overt racist overt .
Speaker 2And what did I do with that as a person ? As a young person , I rejected it like , oh that's horrible , oh that's terrible . But I realize now how did I work with the complexity of loving this man and rejecting that part and what seeped in , basically and I grew up in Indiana in the 1970s and we were swimming in racism , swimming in anti-semitism , swimming in homophobia I mean , it goes on in misogyny for sure . So there was no escaping that Right and ultimately I rejected all of that . But I had to start acknowledging that when I met a person , was I looking at them as their role and it could be the role of their gender , their race or am I actually being present with that person and willing to be curious about my biases , not get rid of them ? That , I think , is the key . Oh , I could say I could talk for an hour , but I'll stop .
Speaker 1I was just going to say we're about to go down this rabbit hole , tj , because what comes to my mind is June being Pride Month .
Speaker 1In the beginning of the month , I had shared a post that went something to the effect of I don't remember exactly what it was , but it was something to the effect of it's very hard when someone you love or you care about is making their voting decisions and life decisions in a manner that takes away your rights and takes away your ability to exist .
Speaker 1Actually , tj , I'm going to pause right here and I'm going to actually read what that quote was , because this is really exactly what , and I went back and forth with several people about this exact thing , because you want to like people and you have these people that you do like , but at the same time . So so I shared this post on Facebook in the beginning of Pride Month , and the post said may you never know the fear of having your human rights challenged every time there's an election , yeah , and may you never know the pain of watching your loved ones vote against your rights to exist fully , equally and authentically . And , unfortunately , what ends up happening is people's biases create this
Navigating Tribalism and Connection
Speaker 1. But then , how you're talking about your grandfather , how do you write sit when somebody you love is making conscious decisions that hurt you and remove your ability to exist fully as you are ?
Speaker 2Well , there are some big layers here , and if we look at it only through the political lens which is not my normal lens , but I want to start there that's the issue with two party system .
Speaker 2I mean that really is right because , like I can agree with parts of this and parts of this and then end up voting my conscious over here and that might have a negative impact on someone who I love's life and that's very , very complex and that's not really our conversation , or not my conversation , but I think that's important to note , that I think the the . So I'm going to say , I'm going to tell it as a story . So my dad and his wife they say they live in LA , lower Alabama , and I live in the other LA , in California , and my dad and his wife came to visit and my stepmother , who I adore , said , gosh , people in LA are so friendly . That's not what I was told they were going to be . And I said I bet you , if we walked around the streets of Los Angeles and asked people what they thought about people from lower Alabama , there would also be a lot of judgment . And so we have these ideas that come from tribalism . Right , I think , if we look back , we had to find tribes of people to stay safe and stay alive , and in some cases that still might be true , but in most cases that is antiquated and we've moved beyond that and there's still something that's innate that thinks we think we need to find our tribe . You know one example .
Speaker 2You know as an LGBT well , as a gay man , I'm not going to give myself all that , all the initials , but you know , in the 80s it was all about we want to fight for our rights . Right , there was a lot of fighting for our rights . And then I remember the 90s . You know we're coming out of AIDS and all the layers of that , and I lived in San Francisco . We want equal rights , we want equal rights . And then when they decided they were going to have the F market train come to the Castro , gay people protested . We don't want them in our neighborhood . I'm like , wait a minute .
Speaker 1What's the F market train ?
Speaker 2It's a train that came from Fisherman's Wharf and downtown and was going to come to the Castro and they people were like we don't want them in our neighborhood . I'm like , wait , weren't we advocating for equal rights ? So it's like , in some ways , even though we might say we want love and acceptance , we also might unconsciously still want to keep our tribe over here and want to be separate from . There's nothing inherently wrong with that , but we want to ask what it's creating . When I see myself as part of this group , am I missing an opportunity to realize that we have more similarities than differences ? What I'm not saying is those differences aren't important to celebrate . What I am saying is can we come together in a much deeper way and move beyond the LA , la , that's ?
Speaker 1great . I had an interesting conversation , similar but different , but similar , and it brings it back to the conversation around connection , right ? Because that's really what this whole conversation started as . And I remember I was at a conference and for the people that are listening to this that don't know , both TJ and I work in substance use treatment and mental health field and I had a conversation . I was with a group of people and they asked me if I was in recovery .
Speaker 1When people say are you in recovery , they're referring to from substance use or something along those lines , usually from some sort of disordered behavior . When they asked me that now , somebody who is not in recovery usually will not ask somebody if they're in recovery . That's kind of not a cool thing to ask . But when somebody who's in recovery says to somebody who's not , are you in recovery ? And your response is I am not in recovery from substance use disorder , and their response to you is , oh , you're a normie , and they start laughing at you .
Speaker 1And what I found was that's the same kind of thing , right , because that stigma that everybody's trying to remove , which is exactly what you said , right ? Not in my neighborhood , not in my neighborhood Do we want to be with this person , hang out with this person who is not struggling with the same things we have but at the same time , like my , life is dedicated to helping people who are dealing with these things . So I think , to wrap it all up , it's really important to make that effort to understand and to connect with people , as opposed to focusing on that division and the things that we're not alike . That's right . Yeah , I mean further .
Speaker 2Yeah , I mean I love what you're saying about this normie thing , because I cringe when I hear that term and I actually heard a therapist in our field doing a presentation and he kept using the term normie and I'm thinking well , first of all , we're saying if you have a substance use disorder , you're abnormal . We're literally saying that . But we're also separating ourselves . I remember I worked for one program amazing work . I happen to be the only person in recovery there , which is kind of the very unusual thing .
Speaker 2What happens a lot of times is clients will say well , are you in recovery ? And then they want to follow it by . Well , if you're not in recovery , you can't possibly understand me . And we know that's not true , because the human experience and this is where we really drill down to something much deeper we all have the human experience . We have different experiences that create how we perceive the world , but at the core of it , we've all had the same experience we could do a whole show on . Is addiction a disease and is it not a disease ? Is it maybe partially a disease and not ? And what does all that create ? But what I'll say is when I say to someone I'm different because I have this , that's where we start to create more separation rather than connection , and we want to start to explore that awareness , awareness and awareness .
Speaker 1TJ , I thank you so much . This is outstanding . I love having you on and I look forward to bringing you on again soon . Can you tell people where to find your contact info and how to get in touch with you ?
Speaker 2Yeah , absolutely TJwoodwordcom , very simple . Thanks so much , tj . Thank you .
Speaker 1Thanks for tuning in to Hatchin' Creativity . We appreciate your support . Please don't forget to like and subscribe and tell all your friends about the show and remember it's never just about one thing .
